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Offline Dave

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« 2021-Apr-01, 02:11 PM Reply #1675 »
Pete, they have already done that i.e. padded whips, they do not hurt the horse, what motivates the horse is the noise they make, not the pain they cause
This has nothing to do with what either side claims, neither side gives a damn about animal safety or protection, this is all about money,
If Racing really cared they would make Spurs a gear change or ban them, they don't make them a gear change because they know they are cruel and do not want to bring any attention to them of genuine Animal lovers
Alternately if Animal welfare groups really cared they would add Spurs to their campaign, it's not because they don't know because I have told them
They don't make spurs an issue because they are a hard sell as they are hard if not impossible to see, the genuine Animal lovers, are those on the ground working as volunteers, they are the ones that really care but no one tells them, The whip is visible, everyone can see a horse getting whipped, they can't see them being dug with a spur
The people who do all the talking for these Animal Welfare groups are the ones living in Ivory Towers that are being paid for by the donations of real animal lovers who think they are helping to stop cruelty, bad publicity(good for them) raises a lot of money
You seem to be working on the false assumption that Racing administrators are looking for a genuine solution to stop cruelty, NO they're NOT
What they are looking for is good publicity!!
What the animal welfare groups are looking for is BAD publicity!
There is one thing they both have in common, they are both only concerned with their own bottom line!
On this issue both sides disgust me

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2021-Apr-01, 05:53 PM Reply #1676 »


.................. on good authority, a top-ten jockey, the padded whip now in use does hurt horses.


.................... the industry no longer claims that the the padded whip now in use does NOT hurt horses.

The practical response of the racing industry needs to go to a different level ....... a negotiation in cooperation with the animal welfare people and anyone else opposed to the current situation.

[..and 'no spurs' ever ]

Offline nemisis

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« 2021-Apr-02, 05:53 AM Reply #1677 »
Dave, how on earth do you arrive at "Padded whips don't hurt"?
Go and watch Hinto Blue at Pakenham and tell me what you see.
I'll then tell you what is so clear and obvious to 90% of people who see it.

Racing will never attract meaningful sponsorships while it promotes this "doesn't hurt" nonsense.
Racing just can't get away from all it's old cliches like the "strength of a jockey as he lifts it over the line"
It's generally to do with how much and how hard he's hitting the horse.

Nothing gentle about Kathy O'Hara's whip use on Achiever at his last start.
Clearly strikes the horse well past the post and that doesn't bother the stewards and the Waller man seemed to be "amused" by Kathy's "strength" in a tight finish :what:......but in the wider world it can only be seen as cruelty.

This forked tongue language from the industry will only further damage it.

Offline Dave

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« 2021-Apr-05, 06:34 PM Reply #1678 »
let me explain it for those on here that are a little slow, after a race most horses are sweating heavily, if you run your finger down the sweat it would leave a mark similar to a mark made by a whip but it won't cause any pain, will it??

Of course, a Padded whip will leave marks in the sweat/hair, but not on the skin, hose the horse down and the marks are gone........
Don't get me wrong, I am not an advocate for the whip, it should be banned........what I am saying by comparison to Spurs pain caused by the whip is nonexistent, the whip should be used the way Peter Cook used it, only as a last resort....but Pete was a horseman
By making an issue over the whip they are causing a lot more jockeys to wear spurs....and that IS Cruel!

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2021-Apr-05, 08:16 PM Reply #1679 »


Dave has a point

 ...............let us concede that the use of 'spurs' is to be prohibited .............. one can only wonder 'why not already?'

Conversely, others have a point ---------------- one quite practically contrary to this:

                              the whip should be used the way Peter Cook used it, only as a last resort

While happy to be corrected, my recollection is that on a Cup winner ................. PC pulled the stick a way from home and it was not used 'as a last resort'.

No one would expect anything less.

So, it is time to call time on semantic bullshit ........... the industry needs to aggressively pursue the redesign of a standard 'whip' that meets the objective, of a 'painless whip', with the approval of all registered voters.

........ we are now 12 years on with the industry playing semantic games with 'painless' while so clearly admitting defeat in the administration of any 'rule' to preclude the excessive use of a 'whip' that does cause pain.

......................it is racing administrators that should be fined and suspended every time a jockey uses a whip to cause pain.



Offline nemisis

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« 2021-Apr-05, 08:25 PM Reply #1680 »
Not sure about people here being slow, Dave.
It would be easy if you explain your piece at the top of the page more clearly"Whips don't hurt"........Not the pain they cause" :what: :what:
All in the same sentence??

How could a solid whipping from someone like Nash Rawiller not be extremely painful and not leave marks?......bugger all hair on a horse with a summer coat anyway.
If you still do your Youtube thing.......find yourself a jock to give you some full lashes as per the rules.....hose away the marks????....is that a joke?
Plenty of info out there about horse skin relative to human skin.

Whips, Spurs, Doping, concrete racetracks......it's all cruel!
 

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2021-Apr-05, 08:28 PM Reply #1681 »


................ nemissis is right on the money ................ back to taws on the design of a painless whip.


Offline nemisis

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« 2021-Apr-06, 01:24 PM Reply #1682 »
Nothing funny about whipping a horse but I was a bit amused watching D Stackhouse on Hinto Blue at Sandown yesterday.
You could almost see the jock having a good think about it, before applying it to the horse behind the saddle.
Stackhouse couldn't get his whip hand back on the reins quick enough after giving him one.....quite a contrast from his last couple of races..
Hinto Blue looks to be a fairly genuine horse without the stick.....sadly it's just part of racing. emthdown

Peter Cook was a bit of a hero to many for his reluctance to cane a horse with the stick.
He lost a bit of his credibility aboard Just A Dash......must have starting counting his winning percentage  :what:
I just took a look at the replay......Peter Cook's whip is clearly visible being used on the corner at Flemington. :o .....still nothing like Malcolm Johnston's disgraceful display on Kingston Town. emthdown

Anyone know why the padded whips have to be black?.....could it be to make them look less conspicuous? :shrug:

Offline Dave

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« 2021-Apr-06, 07:49 PM Reply #1683 »
nemesis you say you ain't slow? then why do I have to use words with 3 syllables to get my point across, what do you perceive as Pain? do I need to go through all the different measures of pain From a needle prick to being decapitated by a blunt knife?
The pain caused by a padded whip would be so negligible as to hardly count as pain and don't forget, they are not being hit by real (normal)adults, we are talking about dehydrated midgets, the original 90lb weaklings using a padded whip, when a doctor slapped your arse a few minutes after you were born would cause more pain, padded whips have a more psychological effect on a horse than a physical effect, the first time a jockey hits a horse it responds, after that, not so much(on most horses) jockeys need to keep slapping(but not belting) the horse to keep it's momentum going otherwise if you hit the horse at the furlong, then stop a lot of horses will slow, not because they are bludging but because they think the race is over,
Jockeys should carry whips but the effectiveness of it's use is overrated, horses do not need to be belted every stride, the whip is to get the message across that we are now at the serious end of our work

And Pete I know this is a waste of time that I will never get back, Peter Cook only used the whip as a last resort, not sure what horse you are referring to(Just A dash or Black Knight) and I am not denying that he may have used it more on some poccassions....but even if he used it from the half mile all the way to the post, that was a last resort on THAT horse, it may have been lazy, some horses(like people) are just slow learners.....you could beat them over the head until the cows come home and they still wouldn't twig about what is going on around them.......
as for spurs I will tell you what my real beef is with them, when I was a kid they were used in conjunction with a battery, you dig the horse in the ribs with the spurs attached to a battery on the track in the morning....then on raceday the minute you touch the horse with the spurs they think a shock is coming and respond accordingly, I never actually saw it done(otherwise I would have reported it) then...but I was told about it many times and have no doubt the stories were true, Spurs are cruel, the argument that Nemesis made re Drugs, Concrete tracks etc being "cruel" is spurious at best, first Drugs are illegal and if caught the penalties are quite severe....and to call a track "Concrete" in this day and age is plain silly and even if it was there was ZERO intent to be cruel....cruelty is all about intent, Spurs are used with the intent to be cruel, they try their best not to present even a real "Good" track, what they call "good" is in effect a dead/slow track

The problem with that is evolution, Australia is the driest inhabited country on earth, in the past we raced on fast1 tracks week after week with no ill effects.....it is because we keep serving up soft tracks that evolution makes a horses bones softer because nature perceives that they no longer need strong bones, there are fish that live that far down in the depths that they have no eyes cos nature perceived that eyes on a fish in complete blackness was pointless....just look at the Galapagos islands, the same species on different islands have evolved to survive off different food sources, some cam climb trees while others grow long beaks etc
What you and most people don't get is the softer you make the track, the softer you will have to make the tracks, it will never end, it's a self fulfilling prophecy, it is soft bones that are the problem, not hard tracks, as I said when tracks really were flint hard there was no problem, just look at how many starts the past champions had and very few ever retired because they broke down, they often raced multiple time in a week and won them all!
By comparison to today's champions who are kept in cotton will and still retire early, it's not just champions, it's all horses
In saying that we have gone down the wrong track for far too long to turn around now, softer and softer tracks will be the order of the day until they have punters betting on swimming races!               

Offline nemisis

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« 2021-Apr-06, 09:18 PM Reply #1684 »
That would be the longest bit of hogwash I've read on the forum.

If I can be bothered I'll respond to each of your "points"
Just on tracks.......years ago they were generally loam based.
 RVL thought in 2006 that sand based tracks would be "better" for turnover and track preservation.......horse welfare was never a consideration.
The sand they use at Flemington is a draining masterpiece......but dries out way too quickly and becomes far too hard.
I would like an engineer to do a compaction test on the surface after a day like the last Cup day......you could build a highway on it.
Look at recent track failures and the common denominator is sand based.....Eagle Farm is a standout.
You obviously have paid no attention to "horse actions" in the Steward's report, nor the number of breakdowns and the disappearing thoroughbreds coming off Flemington.

If Australia wants their thoroughbreds to race on concrete then set up a breeding program to breed gallopers that can......until then it's cruel!
Meanwhile we still wait for the Anthony Van Dyck report......what's the bet the track surface won't get a mention?

Drugs????......how can an industry be serious about drug detection when it looks to be encouraging the use of diuretics?....(lasix)

Offline PoisonPen7

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« 2021-Apr-21, 06:45 PM Reply #1685 »
Landmark decision as Tasmanian Cup Final harness result overturned after protracted investigation


Whip use in Australian racing is under a renewed microscope after a landmark ruling stripped Bullys Delight of last month’s win in Tasmania’s biggest harness race.

In handing down his ruling, former Racing NSW chairman of stewards Ray Murrihy described winning driver Rhys Nicholson‘s actions as “grievous violations of the rules and were so far outside what is permitted in the conduct of harness racing that they’d be viewed as an affront by a fair-minded person.”

The Victorian-trained pacer won the $75,000 Group 2 Tasmanian Cup Final by 4.6 metres, but protests were immediately lodged by the drivers of runner-up The Shallows (Heath Woods) and third-placed Lip Reader (Conor Crook) alleging improper whip and foot use by Rhys Nicholson.

Stewards dismissed the protests on the night, citing they “could not be absolutely sure” Nicholson’s actions improved Bullys Delight’s performance and/or altered the result of the race.

But within 24 hours Tasmania’s office of racing integrity revealed it would hold an inquiry into the protest result and Nicholson’s actions.

Decorated former Racing NSW chairman of stewards Murrihy was appointed to lead the investigation and, after taking a range of evidence at an inquiry last week, stunningly overturned the result of the race.

Nicholson’s drive sparked outrage for his excessive and improper whip use as well as him dropping his right foot from the sulky rest to make contact with Bullys Delight’s right hind leg (hock).

In harness terms, it’s called “hocking” and horse and drivers believe it gives the horse a fright and spurs it to go faster.

In his ruling, Murrihy stated: “In my view, had it not been for the whip, had it not been for the hocking, Bullys Delight wouldn’t have finished in front of the (subsequently) first and second placed horses.”

He added: “We cannot accept a victory at any cost approach. You wouldn’t take that risk in a $5000 maiden, but there is more incentive in bigger races and it’s those bigger races which are watched by larger and broader audiences.

“In this case, you have to consider not just the seriousness of the infractions, but the welfare considerations and social licence we have to conduct racing. I looked at the totality and gravity of what occurred.”


Murrihy said the ruling created the opportunity for harness racing to review its rules.

“It‘s like we’ve come to a T-intersection,” he said. ”There seems to have been a presumption the harness racing rules require stewards to believe the actions of a driver changed the result of a race factoring in the margin involved and that’s not the case,” Murrihy said.

“A conversation could well be held to test the criteria of protest hearings to reflect today’s standards.

“Thoroughbred rules are different and do clearly state that. I’m not saying that’s perfect either.”

Asked whether he sympathised with punters who backed the second horse, The Shallows, on the night and didn’t collect, while those who backed Bullys Delight did, Murrihy said: “That’s long been a talking point on other matters like horses subsequently being disqualified for a positive swab.

“This was considered on the night and the stewards referred it, as the rules permit, for further consideration.”


The connections of Bullys Delight have 14 days to appeal the decision.

Murrihy’s decision is believed to be the first such ruling in Australian harness racing for almost 28 years.

Franco Tiger was awarded the 1993 Group 1 Treuer Memorial at Bankstown after finishing second to champion Kiwi pacer Master Musician and protesting unsuccessfully on the night.

Franco Tiger’s connections went all the way to the Supreme Court, which ordered the protest be re-heard with a new stewards’ panel. That “second” protest was upheld.


https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/horse-racing/landmark-decision-as-tasmanian-cup-final-harness-result-overturned-after-protracted-investigation/

Offline Dave

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« 2021-Apr-21, 07:32 PM Reply #1686 »
Nemesis, not sure if you have ever heard of a Track called R-A-N-D-W-I-C-K??? for 2 hundred years it was a bottomless sand based track, the best wet weather track on the planet how does that fit in with your theory?
 It could pour rain for 2 hours at Randwick on a Saturday morning and by the afternoon it would be a good track!
They do not want good tracks, they install water retaining profiles everywhere, that is why we are getting so many damned bias tracks, they take for ever to dry and they never dry even!!
They would never install a sand track, they want tracks that hold moisture for days on end, Now if it rains at Randwick on Sunday the track is still heavy the following Saturday even with 6 days of brilliant sunshine, that is the type of tracks they are installing, we are the driest inhabited continent on Earth, we don't have the water to make and keep sand tracks soft, it's because breeders are breeding fast maturing horses and when they mature fast, their bones are weak, hence they need soft tracks, it's not Rocket science, though maybe it is ...for you??

Offline nemisis

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« 2021-Apr-21, 08:34 PM Reply #1687 »
Dave, you clearly are not aware how many types and grades of sand there are.....there is a sand for every application.....even under freeways.
We even have a Sydney sand.

Randwick has an excellent profile and it combines sand and loam.
When the great sand salesman sold his great drainage sand to the Flemington committee, as they sat in their air-conditioned offices, I'll bet not one of them queried how hard and compact the surface might become......the result is Flemington  can be a total embarrassment and disgrace to who ever signed the contract.
It becomes so hard it is cruel......even for firm track gallopers.....that's why there is a move back to the loam surfaces you referred to back in "the good old days".
Imagine the uproar If I only cantered a horse on a highway with whips and spurs  and the Murdoch press got hold of me.
Sacking and replacing track managers and using them as scapegoats is cruel as well.

How did Eagle Farm buy this great sand sales pitch as well? :what: what on earth was so wrong with that track before?

Sadly Dave you are not paying close enough attention.....I'll call  Rekindling as my first witness......see if you can spot it.
Watch Payroll in the following race while you're there.

Offline nemisis

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« 2021-Apr-23, 08:35 AM Reply #1688 »
"Our position here is it's a padded whip and the whip in our view is not one that has any welfare implications upon the horse"

You would understand if these are the words of someone in a marketing role for horse racing but these are words of the Chief Steward of Sydney racing......strike me pink!
These are the same words that we hear from P V'Landys and everybody employed by RNSW.
Any jockey charged with a breach of the whip rules could just take that statement off to a civil court and have the charges thrown out.

Offline napes

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« 2021-Apr-23, 11:03 AM Reply #1689 »
What about the saddle? Does that hurt the horse? How would you like a strap tightened around your stomach while you are made to run around a circle?

And the bit. A metal rod shoved in your mouth. And don't get me started on the tongue tie.

At least all this mindless focus on a foam tipped fibreglass stick keeps the dribblers happy. They can go home and get stuck into their free range rib fillet and feed their shih tzu ethically treated "beef" mince straight from the knackery.

Offline nemisis

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« 2021-Apr-23, 01:40 PM Reply #1690 »
You can get started on the tongue tie Napes.....educate away.

I don't know much about it but when I see a horse having it removed after the race, he does look to be mighty pleased it's gone.
It's funny you chose the word "dribbler" because that's what most people feel they are doing when they're in a dentist's chair and they can't use their tongue to swallow :what:
Certainly doesn't look to be that pleasant.....but here's your platform.

I found this.
https://www.sydney.edu.au/news-opinion/news/2018/07/16/australian-horses-race-with-their-tongues-tied.html

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2021-Apr-23, 09:35 PM Reply #1691 »


................ most married men would be familiar with a tongue tie ........... unable to speak they run to instructions.

Offline Dave

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« 2021-Apr-24, 10:16 PM Reply #1692 »
None of our tracks were a problem for almost 200 years, this problem with tracks being "too hard" is a fairly recent phenomenon, ask yourself Why? I worked in stables when I was a kid more than 50 years ago and have been involved in the industry every since......we never had horses breaking down because of hard tracks, actually you will find even today, most horses die racing of artificially soft tracks, not hard tracks, and the reason is simple for anyone who has a an IQ above single digits, with hard tracks there is no give, this means there is no slippage, on so called "Good 4" tracks there is give, when a horse is straining towards the end of a race, mainly in the straight where 90% of horses break down, his stride is as long as it can be because he is stretching to it's limit, when the foot hits the ground way out in front of him, on a hard track, that is where it lands, on a soft track it can slip another 6 inches, maybe even further, that is where they they do their tendons etc, have you ever put one foot out in front of you and had it slip further away?
Now this may be over your head, but astronauts in space have a serious problem with bone density because they are weightless, evolution doesn't take generations, they do not load their bones so they develop weak bones in a really short time period, that is exaggerated but it is the same problem we have here
The problem we have in Australia is that we are racing European horses and trying to supply them with European tracks, that is damn near impossible,
On top of that we are specializing in baby races, we are expecting babies to do what 4 and 5 year olds do, horses are not fully mature until they are 5/6 or even 7 years old, that is when their bones are fully matured, that doesn't mean they should be in the paddock until they are that old, it means that they should be kept away from maximum pressure on their bodies until they can take it, they should slowly be introduced to hard tracks, load their bones over time, we want success and we want it Now!........Australia is what Australia is, hard tracks are not what is cruel, hard tracks and greedy breeders are what is wrong
I could give you another analogy about Giant Redwood trees in New Zealand that are only good for pulp because they grow up too fast, they grow 200 feet in a few years, the same tree in America takes 800 years to grow a similar height......but the timber is like granite, same tree, different conditions.........different quality.......you cannot change the Australian weather, well we are changing it....but it will get hotter and the tracks will get harder....until we start swimming races!
Fix the problem, not the symptoms!

Offline nemisis

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« 2021-Apr-25, 09:08 AM Reply #1693 »
Lay off your IQ nonsense Dave.....your Californian Redwood analogy is an embarrassment to you.
I had a garage full of it ......it is a softwood.
Durable as?.... yes absolutely.....easy to work with .....that's why it was chopped down.
Take it from me when I tell you if your kids banged a table knife into it, it dings, it's not like granite.....ironic isn't it that something so durable in fact has "some give"   :lol:  

I was also in a stable close to 50 years ago.....we had breakdowns, bowed tendons and heat in horses legs back then as well.
We didn't have wall to wall racing back then and racetracks weren't put under the same sort of pressure.
I dug a few holes in my yard the other day and even though it hadn't rained for a couple of weeks the soil had retained moisture....wasn't boggy, just looked good.....that's nature at work.
That's what the original tracks were.......not manufactured surfaces like Flemington and the like.
Bit more of a natural surface would surely mean not having to pump so much water into it, to get it to retain some.

Flogging the arse off young immature animals can only lead to one result.
No arguments from me about the European influence not always suitable for this dry continent as well, but it does rain here.

St Leger today and if the track stays damp it will no doubt be the Sadler's Wells breed that will be showing the stamina today.
« Last Edit: 2021-Apr-25, 10:44 AM by nemisis »

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2021-Apr-26, 10:03 PM Reply #1694 »



....  even  'clark of course' cannot make sense of a whip policy debate


https://www.racenet.com.au/news/can-we-clear-this-whip-problem-up-20210426

Offline Gintara

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« 2021-Apr-26, 10:53 PM Reply #1695 »

They do not want good tracks, they install water retaining profiles everywhere, that is why we are getting so many damned bias tracks, they take for ever to dry and they never dry even!!


Not correct Dave, it's all about hydraulic conductivity. It's about moving the moisture through. Trouble is some are so free draining that they are having to water so close to racing that we see these surfaces that look wet.


When the great sand salesman sold his great drainage sand to the Flemington committee, as they sat in their air-conditioned offices, I'll bet not one of them queried how hard and compact the surface might become......the result is Flemington  can be a total embarrassment and disgrace to who ever signed the contract.


That would come down to the angulation or the shape of the sand, too many angular shapes and it would 'lock' together creating your highway. Great on a golf green if you want ball roll but not fantastic for a racetrack or sportfield.

Offline Peter Mair

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« 2021-Apr-27, 06:35 PM Reply #1696 »


Richie Rich -- the role of the persuader

Yesterday 'clark of course' could not answer the question 'Can we clear this whip problem up?' ............. today, just segue to Richie-can

I don’t want to know what the public in general think.

....... I asked 10 of my mates ..... if they would be happy to see whip use phased out.

........... all of my mates are........... punters, trainers and jockeys ..........they would like to see the use of the whip retained - it was unanimous.


This has to stop!

Offline Arsenal

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